Why Digital Marketing and Commerce Should Be Part of Your Sustainability Strategy ft. Ahmed Elshinnawy

Hands down, some of the most energizing experiences are when I meet people who are doing what they excel in and applying it to a purpose greater than themselves. These are typically people who have experienced success in a certain area, recognized that this is where they add the most value, and use their expertise to move their vision forward.

Our next guest has a deep, proven track record in the world of digital advertising consulting. And, as you will hear throughout this episode, Ahmed Elshinnawy is now applying his industry experience to disrupt the corporate world through a sustainability lens.

With more than 15 years working for some of the biggest names in consulting, Ahmed knows what it means to support his customers on their respective journeys. With many corporations now exploring how to improve their environmental and social impacts, Ahmed plays a key role in guiding them through their options.

Based in LA, California, Ahmed got his BComm with a focus on Supply Chain Management, and holds a Graduate Certificate in Marketing.

Even as someone who works in both marketing and sustainability, I learned a lot from Ahmed during our conversation about how these worlds intersect, and the role that technology will play in deepening this relationship.

While especially relevant for those in digital adverting, Ahmed’s insights are incredibly valuable for anyone navigating resiliency in the workforce.

[Host: Lauren Scott] Thank you for joining me today Ahmed on The Resilience Report. I'm really happy to have you here with us.

[Guest: Ahmed Elshinnawy] Lauren, it's a pleasure to be here. I am excited about our conversation today and looking forward to it.

So, to get things started, and to provide a little bit of context for our listeners. Would you mind providing in your own words but who you are, and how you got to where you are on your professional journey today.

Yeah, I've had an interesting background and story.

I was born in Egypt, I grew up in Canada, and now I live in the US. And sometimes I think of it as instead of how some people are collecting stamps, I am collecting passports / citizenships. But I think it has provided me with a great opportunity to be immersed in different cultures, different countries, language and so forth, and I think it has really shaped part of my identity, and who I am today.

So I currently live in sunny Los Angeles and my focus in my career has been also on a an interesting trajectory, I guess, also similar to my background.

I started my career in digital commerce and digital marketing, and have been in that space for about 15 years. And then, most recently, I re-imagined myself, and thinking about what would I reflect on in doing and in terms of the impact.

And I kind of pivoted my focus a little bit to focus on sustainability and climate, and ultimately just how we can help our clients and even ourselves make this a better planet and a better world for all of us.

I definitely want to dive deeper into that pivot; I think it's going to be super interesting. But to first provide a bit of context for those listeners who are not familiar with digital marketing and commerce. Would you mind explaining what the last 15 years of your career looked like, what kind of tasks or clients were you taking on just to provide a bit more context?

I think pretty much everyone now is involved in a way with digital commerce or marketing, but not necessarily, maybe familiar with the terms, because they've just been really embedded in our in our day to day.

So you know, digital commerce is really as simple as you going online and adding a product or a service to your cart and checking out. It's almost an expectation now for consumers that, any business or service that they interact with, they have an online presence and they provide a meaningful and a joyful experience in terms of you know, selling their products and services. So as easy as thinking about Uber Eats from ordering your food or going online to buy clothes, or just as simple as also thinking about an airline or a or a train ticket that you have to buy. All of that is really powered by digital commerce.

And then from a relevancy standpoint: digital marketing. Everyone now is on their phones, whether they're on Instagram or Tik Tok, and they see a lot of the ads coming in and so forth. So I think that probably can give a an idea for what we mean when we talk about digital marketing and digital commerce.

Absolutely. So when you're speaking to these customers over the past decade and a half, did you start seeing a shift towards - collective consciousness - towards sustainability at a certain time? Was it gradual?

I'd be curious as you're having - because as a consultant you have a very intimate relationship with your clients - I'm very curious as to how this change has evolved over the past few years.

And you know, when I think about it, sustainability in itself isn't necessarily a new concept.

And I wouldn't even think of it as you know something revolutionary or “how did we not think about this before?” I think we're just living at a time where there's a lot of unsettling topics going on, and there's so many factors that have been contributing to it, and so I know perhaps I’ll pick a couple to touch on.

Definitely government regulations have been playing a big role in it and, over the last perhaps year or two, we've seen a lot of attention on that topic from government regulations. I think the one we can, you know, highlight was the most recent one coming out from the Biden administration around the Inflation Reduction Act and all things that go into that. So I think government regulations have played a an important factor for a lot of the major corporations in many industries around how they approach that topic. In particular, also to their interest in terms of tax incentives and credits that are offered on that front.

So that's 1 one piece of it. The other I would say we've also seen some companies in the industries that are coming out straight out to say, we want to do good by the planet. And some of those, obviously, that come to mind are Patagonia and the recent announcements in terms of their products and services, as well as their stance, in terms of giving back to the community. And a couple of more examples there.

So I think you know, looking at that landscape, there's a lot of factors that are affecting the those conversations be governments, you know, being companies coming out to have these conversations. But I think also, consumers are starting to play a bigger role in that, especially as we look at Gen Z and some of the values that they look for in terms of developing those relationships with the companies where they buy products and services. And a lot of the studies now are showing that that is top of mind for Gen Z consumers, and as they continue to have more and more purchasing power, then obviously they start having a bigger say in some of that. So, you know, a couple of those are in my mind, or a couple of the main factors that are affecting the conversation in terms of its in terms of its priority.

That absolutely makes sense. And I can wrap my head around, you know, consulting and traditional advertising or marketing, and the role of the consultant in that. How does that role shift then? Are you still focused on the advertising lens or the digital marketing lines and weaving in sustainability? Or was your career pivot really purely to sustainable consulting going forward?

Great question definitely my roots are still within commerce and marketing. So, I think the way I try to approach those challenges with some of our clients is really around: how do we use the power of commerce and marketing to help them achieve some of their sustainability commitments that they've made, or challenges in the in the marketplace. And that could be from brand messaging, right? That's part of digital marketing around “What are they? What are their commitments? How are they communicating it? What level of transparency is being applied there?” You know, and many more on that front.

And then, if you think about it from a commerce standpoint, you know, if we use an example of a company that is in the business of selling dresses right, we use that as an example. How can they actually weave that as part of the shopping experience? So are they going to create categories for dresses that have been more on the sustainable side in terms of the material itself. Is it recycled material? Is the cotton organic? What are they doing from a supply chain standpoint and really offer the consumer, you know, using the commerce technology ways for them to connect with some of those more sustainable products. So, I mean really I guess the focus is how do we use marketing and commerce from a branding standpoint and communications as well as the shopping experience to align with the customers values.

That really cleared it up for me. And the example I’m thinking of is in beauty products, for example. I’m thinking of a large retailer like Sephora: you can now tick off, for example, paraben free or clean and vegan product lines. So it's maybe even that back end tagging that allows it to be easier for consumers to choose responsible products. Would that maybe be a way to phrase it?

Yeah, absolutely. And some of the work we’ve also been involved with lately is around resale.

So a lot of the products even before the end of the shelf life, you know, a lot of consumers may not be interested in having them anymore. So you're either going to go on a on a marketplace or try to find somewhere to sell it and get some money back. But if the actual company, let's assume Sephora for that example, is offering you a buyback program where you can go, return, and perhaps get a coupon for your next purchase. So, one they've aligned with your value, two they can use the use product either to recycle themselves or maybe offer on their commerce platform as part of resale that someone else may be okay with using a used product at a low price point.

Which also, then to you, means you've increased the shelf life of your product, which made it even more sustainable. So you know, even from one simple example you could see the power of marketing and commerce to come in, and the role they can play in making those products more sustainable.

Very interesting. It sounds like there are a lot of opportunities for businesses to explore within the problem of the current climate crisis - there are a ton of opportunities for innovation. Are there any real opportunities that you’re seeing pop up for clients? And then also, are there any real barriers to entry as well?

There is definitely a consistent theme across all of the industries that I've been in touch with and that's data. Obviously being able to find the right data and aggregate it across all of the different initiatives and programs that are going on and having a source of truth to be able to act and report on whether that is going to be with the end customer as you're on your journey to be more transparent and offer that lens of accountability, or being able to use the data to report and try and opt in for those tax incentives and credits, right?

So that's definitely one theme that has been consistent in terms of challenges: companies can have lots of programs, but how you aggregate the data and make it consistent into one form in order to be able to report on it. And there are some technologies that help today, but I also see the technology hasn't been able to catch up with some of the demand around how to solve some of these some of these problems. So I think a big piece of it is data.

Certainly, and I think as we have more and more tools, we will have access to more and more data. So, I completely agree with you. This idea of the need to aggregate the information and make sense of everything coming in.

The link between marketing, commerce, and sustainability (and especially sustainability in positive sense) is not always the most natural link. I certainly see the connection, but I would love for you to share how you see the 2 working hand in hand, and how you really do need to have that marketing/commerce side in order to achieve meaningful progress with regards to environmental protection?

You know, even if we think of a simple website: it is really the first touch point where the customer gets to know and learn about the company that they're interacting with. It's very difficult today that you think of a company that's providing a product or a service that does not have a website. It's really that first touch point where you have an opportunity to talk about the business, talk about your values and the impact that you're trying to make, obviously to establish that meaningful relationship with your customers. Thinking at it from a from a global lens, if you want to know about a company in Australia or Zimbabwe, or you name it, the first thing you do is, is you Google the company. So it is that very first touch point. And I always say, first impressions count.

And as you're looking to make that first impression with your global customers, thinking about how you want to position your brand from a sustainability lens, how you want to talk about your values, that's where really the digital marketing piece comes in from a branding and a communication standpoint. And if you are in the business of selling a product or a service online, that's when the commerce piece obviously kicks in. In terms of you making and building sustainability as part of the shopping experience rather than just, you know, a check the box exercise, I have a section on my site that's titled sustainability and so be it.

This goes perfectly with the next question that I wanted to ask, which is, how, as a consumer, can we help to suss out which companies or yeah, which companies are greenwashing, and if maybe you could actually start with describing our your definition of greenwashing, and then how you think consumers can help filter through those companies making meaningful changes.

I don't know if I have an actual consistent definition, and that's because I also change naturally (in my mind) my point of view on it and I look at it on a on a case-by-case basis. I think, you know, and I guess part of our culture right now we would come up with a label and kind of group a lot of things together under that label. Well, not necessarily digging in digging in deep.

And I’ll give you an example; I think examples do clarify that. If you look at the airline industry, and they are directly obviously contributing to emissions from their commercial flights, cargo and so forth. So, if the airline realizes that they're obviously in a unique position, because their bread and butter is contributing to those emissions.

If they're buying offsets, is that totally greenwashing and them buying their way out? If it's a 100%? Maybe, but what if it's 50%? What if it's 20%? So I don't necessarily know who draws that line? And who would qualify them as greenwashing? I could certainly see the argument that if it's 100% it's greenwashing right. But I think that's why I like to look at it on a case by case basis. Because there's really a lot more to it than that. But yeah, to answer your first question around greenwashing: to me, I would probably categorize it as looking for the easy way out without putting in the actual time and effort into thinking about “how can we actually address some of these challenges?”

And then, from your customers’ standpoint, it's certainly challenging as marketers to toe that line as to how can you communicate the meaningful changes you've made, and then, making sure that you are not over-selling the concept. It is really delicate. We know, for example, the Federal Trade Commission is coming out with deeper regulations around the term “green”. So how can marketers be mindful of this – and I think we need to assume positive intent - how can they really communicate positive changes that they're having without running that risk of falling into the greenwashing category, either legally or just in the eyes of the consumer?

More and more consumers are becoming extremely savvy, and I think social media has accelerated that to great lengths. Long gone are the days where a company can just say we're doing some of these things without really demonstrating a certain level of transparency. And so, even though reporting, you know, from a regulatory standpoint hasn't been necessarily mandatory, we're starting to see a lot of companies actually that are becoming more and more comfortable reporting on that. And I think consumers, consumers’ expectations, as they become more and more savvy, are going to just continue to go up.

And even though there may not be a regulation, I think consumers and the pressure they can apply will definitely change that conversation, and I think a lot of companies are going to find it very difficult to hide away from reporting. There's also been a lot of other factors that play into how consumers can really know who's doing what and on what scale. So a couple of reports actually, that that do come out, I mean, I can mention Refinitiv is one of them CDP,  and so forth. So that's all accessible to consumers that they can access and actually see a score and a rating, even a ranking in comparison to competition in the market on who is really doing the work versus who is just talking about it.

I'm very curious to know, with your experience with digital marketing and commerce, is there any technology in particular that you think is going to help accelerate this intersection of sustainability and the digital marketing / ecommerce world?

Yeah, absolutely. One of the things we're starting to see in the marketplace from a technology standpoint is that the technology providers are actually now having conversations with us on the consulting side, as well as well as a lot of the companies across industries, into what capabilities are we looking for them to build and even build some accelerators so that they can enter the market a lot faster and be able to actually fast track their commitments.

And I’ll give you an example: I guess, sharing examples to make it easy. If you're thinking about setting up a buyback program. So if we look at Sephora again, and if they're interested in a buyback program, what technology is needed in place? Are they going to be using their commerce site today? Are they going to launch a completely new commerce site that says like new or pre-loved or gently used products? And then how do they actually run that store? Do they need to just expand the current digital commerce and marketing team? Do they hire a completely new different team to handle that side of the business? And then think about all of the different factors that that go into place. How does that get integrated with our current ERP systems, financials, supply chain, you name it. So I think, you know, I’m starting to see a lot of those conversations take place, because the technology providers need to remain up to date and truly provide those capabilities that can solve for these problems.

I think it's really interesting, and it's jogging my memory of having seen this with Patagonia that they do have a gently love section. I believe it's the consumer who can resell but use their platform to do so. But it is - it's really interesting. It's probably going to take first movers like them to land it, and maybe to see which technology works or doesn't work to then allow a broader scope of businesses to get involved.

Absolutely.

So full transparency: we've known each other for a number of years, or we were at university together over 15 years ago. I am curious: did you have a specific moment since then, or was it before then where you really saw and felt an interest in terms of sustainability? Was there a pivotal moment? Or is it a little bit more gradual.  

Definitely, a pivotal moment.

And I think we - I - can speak for many of us who, you know, get very focused on the day to day, and some of the things that we you know, have to do in the industry and with our clients, and getting on a podcast, and all of that.

And even though sometimes we may have moments of reflection, either between meetings, or if you're out on a walk, or it could be on a vacation in the Caribbean. Sometimes we don't act on those moments, and just think of “what ifs”, “maybe this, and maybe that”. Now, as I reflect on my own journey, I think it was really a pivotal moment where I was thinking to myself: 20, 30, maybe even 40 years from now, if I look back at my own career, would I be proud and happy of what I’m doing right now?

And I think that moment and reflection was really the trigger point and got me to think about, well, I think what would make me really happy and proud of where I've been spending my time would be if I leave my mark and doing something good for the planet. Even if it's helping with 1% or 0.5%, more so than you know, launching the best digital campaign or building or designing the most sophisticated and best in class commerce experience.

In keeping in that theme of commerce and business students, if there are any soon to be graduates in the commerce space, or even someone who studied in the space, and has been working in the business sector for a number of years and wants to pivot over to a more sustainable career or a career more focused in sustainability. What advice would you have?

You know, before answering that question, I've also had some reflection on giving advice, and I actually have decided that I would never give advice anymore, which is interesting. I think the best thing for someone to do is to share their own individual experience.

As I've learned, I think, sometimes giving advice to someone they really only share with you what they want you to know. And so, you never really have the full picture. So, I think I've also had my own reflection of trying to not give advice, and I think perhaps sharing my own experience could help or inspire someone. And maybe that way in itself, no one will come back to me and say you gave me the wrong advice.

I like to always, when I look at a situation or a challenge or a problem, look at it from both sides, and read all arguments: far right and far left. I think I mentioned that to you as we were preparing for this a couple of weeks ago: I think it's really important, because the more you read about both sides, the more you can formulate your own data points, even conclusions if you're comfortable at that point.

Be it: this is the absolute most important topic in today's world, and if we don't address climate change and sustainability, you know, we may be ending our life on this planet very soon all the way to the left.

And the completely opposite side: this is completely hoax and fake news and climate change does not exist, and even reading articles coming up from MIT saying Earth is actually been regulating its own temperature and nothing really is going on.

So I think my experience has been that it's important to read both sides, and sometimes you get to the conclusion that the truth is, perhaps, somewhere in the middle. Not on the extreme side. And I think that helps think, about helps people think about, if that's really where I feel today, and maybe it's somewhere in the middle, how do I want to approach it?

Do I approach it from a technology standpoint? Do I look at it from a data standpoint? So perhaps this is where I should focus my time or prioritize it.

Is it more about figuring out what the strategies for companies and industries should be? Then, perhaps, if I’m passionate about this then I focus on the strategy side of things.

So that's what I would say: try to read a lot and read opposing sides. Draw your own conclusions, and I think it will help you prioritize where to spend your time and focus which will obviously help you as you start looking for opportunities to from a career standpoint.

That is very important advice. It can feel somewhat polarizing, being in this space sometimes, so I think it is important to be informed and informed does mean reading the full spectrum of opinions on an idea. So I really do appreciate that.

If you can share any specific resources that you find are useful either to educate yourself, or even just to feel and find sources of inspiration in the sustainability space that you might want to share with listeners.

I definitely take a much broader view on that. I try to stay up to date on YouTube; I think there's a lot of good content on YouTube. When I try to look for opposing views, I think social media, and in particular I’d probably say Twitter is an interesting space where you could see polarizing views. Definitely not a source of truth, but I think more so than source of truth I think it's important to understand how people today are reacting to certain topics and how they're addressing it because it's revealing.

And I say that it's revealing in that you can, you know, you may want to communicate something, and you're not really sure if it should be your voice. But sometimes someone else is communicating that on social media. And if you feel like this has been your view, you get to see firsthand what the reaction is, and the reception from the market without you getting involved yourself right.

So it kind of also gives you this, what do I call it? It's almost like an A/B testing where you get to see the reaction without you getting involved. So I think social media is important, even if you don't necessarily agree with some of the views depending on where you and which side you sit on, because you get to see how people are reacting to it. And you can't disconnect yourself from that.

The other thing I would say is academia actually has been making a lot of progress on that front. More and more now, we're starting to see colleges and universities offer programs and diplomas and certificates. In some schools perhaps they don't have those programs, but we're also starting to see some courses that you can enroll in and certificates as well. So you know, I would encourage people to look at the full spectrum. I think LinkedIn is also offering free online courses that you can enroll in. So lots of content out there, and I would say, just take your time, go through the journey to figure out where you truly land.

I love that; I do appreciate leveraging technology and the different tools available to educate ourselves. I always like to end every episode with the same question, which is: what do you think it will take for businesses and leaders to be resilient going forward?

It's a good question, and I think I tend to usually lean back into purpose and thinking about how companies today are defining their purpose, whatever that purpose is.

If they are a nonprofit, then that's a completely different brand messaging and way of communicating what their purpose is, and what are the things that are important for them.

I think, for a lot of companies in our capitalistic environment are for I call it extreme profit, they’ll have to make some choices about how they want to be positioned in in the marketplace and whether they may be forced in a way, under certain regulations, to report and adjust their business. And I think others are also thinking about, well maybe this is something that is important in today's world, there's some work to be done on that front, but does it really align with our purpose or not?

Those will also be very different conversations. So I try to always bring it back to purpose, because you know your decisions drive from what your purpose is, and I think we're going to see very different answers across the industry wherever those companies do default: being profit, nonprofit? Are they affected by regulations? What consumers are playing in terms of being able to apply pressure on those companies?

So definitely an interesting time with a lot of polarizing views.  

Well, thank you so much for joining. I've personally learned a lot about how we can weave in the idea of digital marketing and commerce with sustainability. It's an angle I haven't necessarily seen - or I've been seeing but didn't realize I was seeing - so thank you for taking a deep dive with us. I really appreciate you joining us today.

Thank you, Lauren, and, thanks to our listeners, and you know, I hope I was able to contribute and help not inspire but give a different perspective.

Absolutely. Thank you.