Resilience by Design: Optimizing work performance and mental health ft. Dr Marie-Helene Pelletier

You have probably heard me say on past podcast episodes that having a positive impact through your work is a marathon and not a sprint. Part of this fortitude is made possible through managing one’s physical and mental health, or more fittingly for this show: your own resilience.

Which is why I am SO excited to welcome our next guest: Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier. An award-winning workplace mental health expert, psychologist, and advisor, MH (as many people call her) is one of only a handful of work psychologists holding both a PhD and MBA, making her expertly blend business acumen with the latest psychology research. 

Pelletier is a practicing psychologist with 20+ years of experience in clinical and workplace psychology. She also has extensive experience as a senior leader in corporate, insurance, governance, and public sectors. Pelletier is a member of the Global Clinical Practice Network of the World Health Organization, and a past director on the boards of the Canadian Psychological Association and International Association of Applied Psychology.

Pelletier’s work has been featured in publications like Forbes, Thrive Global, and Fast Company and published in academic journals such as Behaviour Research and Therapy, Journal of Anxiety Disorders, and Organizational Dynamics. She is also the author of The Resilience Plan: A Strategic Approach to Optimize Your Work and Health.

This episode has so many tips and tricks that our listeners (and honestly myself) can put into practice right away to help build our own resilience!

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[Host: Lauren Scott] Today, we have a really interesting and exciting episode of The Resilience Report, because we're going to dive into, of all things, resiliency. And to do that, we have a phenomenal guest, Dr. Marie-Helene Pelletier, joining us today. So welcome to the show!

[Guest: Dr. Marie-Helene Pelletier] Thank you, Lauren, it's an absolute pleasure to be here.

To start things off, and this might seem a little silly considering we've been running this show for almost a year now, but this idea of resilience, do you have a definition, or how do you define resilience before we dive in deeper? I think it would just help to level set on that specific term.

Yes, I'll be specific about psychological resilience in this case. In the academic literature, there is actually a variety of definitions, so it's understandable that you would ask what is actually a definition. In this case, I use the one most authors are using, and it's our ability to go through adversity and come out even stronger. There are a few pieces to this, right? So we're going through adversity, it can be something acute, which is often what we think about, but we have to keep in mind it could also be something chronic, like a pandemic, for example. And coming out even stronger refers to that we're learning, there's a growth mindset aspect to it. In workplace psychology, for example, that does apply to us as individuals, to the teams, and to the organization.

Thank you for that lens. To maybe go even deeper, the name of your book is "The Resilience Plan: A Strategic Approach to Optimizing Your Work Performance and Mental Health." What was it that made you want to apply that resilience lens, as we just described, and apply it specifically to the corporate world and to the business professional?

It's everyone I worked with, whether it was in my psychology practice, where I mostly end up working with professionals and leaders, in my executive coaching work, and in my keynote speaking. I tend to just work with individuals who get so much done on a daily basis at work and in their personal life, for that matter, and just get to a point where they need something to give them an edge. What they don't realize is they can't just wing self-care or will themselves to be resilient; they really need to be strategic. But they have developed expertise in such complex areas that it's almost as if they assume that they're already resilient as a person, so therefore, they don't need to do anything about it or whatever they've heard, they think, well, that's not going to change anything really, like what does it matter if I go for lunch with a friend or whatever, right?

So it's in using the business analogy where I would say, okay, wait a second, if you were to launch a new product or a new service here, would you just have a great idea and go and launch it, or would you have your great idea and look at who else is providing it, how much are they charging for it, how much people are willing to pay for it, which forces could impact it, you're looking at all this context. So same thing here, we need to look at the context, we need to be strategic, so planful, proactive, and if we are the same way we are over here, then we actually have a chance at seeing very positive outcomes.

That makes sense, and I can definitely attest to the fact that sometimes when we're in the corporate environment, we just figure, well, I've been doing it for so long, I must know, I must have this all figured out, I'll just keep on pushing forward.

What do you think the biggest barriers are that we're currently facing in the workforce when it comes to addressing this idea of resilience and especially mental health?

Well, it varies in different work environments, work cultures, it varies to some degree in different countries as well, and so it depends. The context will be different at each place, and there are workplaces that have started paying attention to this particular area for a long time, some that are now starting to pay attention. Wherever you are on that continuum, it's a great place to be to just continue the movement. Barriers historically have been the stigma, you know, if you're having any kind of attention to your psychological health, that means you're weak, things like this that have been getting in the way. The pandemic has helped in some ways bring this conversation to the forefront in a way that even more people were comfortable talking about it, noticing it, especially leaders seeing how much they needed to pay attention to their own and to the psychological health of their teams.

As we're moving forward with other challenges, as we bring, say, AI into our workplaces and in our lives, we will very much want to take deliberate steps with AI, and some of that includes having conversations. That include, at times, having one person at a table saying, "I don't think it's a good idea, there is something we haven't looked at," raising the flag. For this person to speak, we need psychological safety. So, yes, it's in part our overall health, so we can bring our best and be engaged, all these very important factors. It also now brings us to the ethics we need to bring to what we do and how we will, in fact, bring our contributions when we collaborate, say, with AI, for example. So there's been different reasons to pay attention to it over time, and there will continue to be, and we just need to continue that conversation and take actions.

It's definitely so nuanced, and one application that is probably, full transparency, the number one reason I wanted to chat with you was a lot of our listeners work deep in the environmental and social impact space, and I've definitely seen it over the years that when you're a professional working for an organization or a cause that you really truly believe in as part of your values, sometimes it can almost take a bigger toll on you as an individual, as a professional, in the sense that you're so closely tied with the cause itself.

Do you have any approaches that you recommend when it comes to those professionals working in the environmental or social impact space?

That is such a great point, and it's one that sometimes people miss because we assume that because we're so connected, so committed, engaged, it's exactly where we want to be, it's all the influences we want to have, and there's so much to do, and we are at the right place. It's wonderful in a number of ways, and that's true for us as leaders; it's often true for people in our teams, right, the same thing. And that is all very positive. What I think we need to do is to make sure we bring this conversation to the forefront, literally say it is fantastic that we are that committed, that is that aligned with our values, and because it is, we also need to make sure we're clear on where we're going to put boundaries because that is what is going to allow us to keep going over time, to sustain this wonderful influence and contribution that we're able to bring.

Especially with sometimes people who are earlier in their careers on the teams that may not even see the size of this wave of how amazing this work is for them and not yet realize that there will still be a point where we will need to say, either “no” or “not right now” or “let's prioritize things differently, let's make sure we pause so I make sure I fill my tank again here”. So having the open conversations help people make sense of their experience of, "I want to say yes to everything, everything needs a yes from me," to "I am still a human with limited resources, fabulous resources and still limited, and to be able to keep going we need to make sure we protect this." A term that sometimes can be useful is to think of it as boundaried generosity. So yes, you're bringing your whole self to this, still in a boundary way, so you can keep going forward.

I've never heard that term before, but I think it is beautiful because it shows that, and probably a lot of people working in the values-based space just want to give and give and give, but it absolutely makes sense to have those boundaries in place as well.

I would say our listeners of The Resilience Report are often in two camps: we have a lot of entrepreneurs who listen, and then we also have a lot of business leaders. So, I would love to dive into both and see if your approach would be different. For entrepreneurs, obviously, it is their 24/7 thinking about their business, thinking about their baby. How do you approach building resilience for the entrepreneur base?

Yes, and there will be a lot of similarities between the two because often when we accept senior leadership roles, it feels like we are owning, you know, that piece, and so there is this element of "my name's all over this" in a positive way, like in a " I'm giving it all I got" type of way. So, there are similarities. What's even more present for entrepreneurs is the challenge of putting limits. At least for the leader, there's usually a bit more of a structure around; sometimes there is a culture that will create a 24/7 incentive, so therefore it's not necessarily always protective, but there can be some structure that may help at times. On the entrepreneur side, that structure needs to come from you, and as the entrepreneur, you can see constantly the endless ways in which you could give to what you're building. And so, which again, usually works for a period of time, at the beginning is understandable; throughout, however, the only way to sustain the highest level of contribution is to make sure you also protect time to ensure you're nourishing the other sides of your life.

So that does include, yes, building your own resilience; it also includes time that as it relates to your values. Hence, looking at your values when you create a plan, there may be other things that are important for you. Maybe there is volunteer work that you've been involved in that still nourishes your soul, even if this over here is asking a lot of your soul. There could be people in your life that you want to make sure you spend time with, children you want to be around, whatever. And so, that's why when we're making a plan, whether you're looking at it from an entrepreneur perspective or leader, you will want to start with your values because it's not just about, oh you know, say no and go take care of yourself just that is not going to make us do it. 

What makes us do things is when it connects with what, for each of us, is our values, our particular context where we're going now, and that context may change between now and three months from now. And if we're realistic with this, then we can run. 

I can completely understand how there is probably a lot of overlap between the entrepreneurial world and the leader world. To double-click into the leader world then too, I can think of it from my own experience of “okay, I can understand the boundaries”, and then you typically have a team. You try and hire A-players as well, and then they're almost in that next layer of go go go, push push push. How do you as a leader help create a safe space for your employees then, to build up their own resilience? Because I think it's one thing to tell them to do it, but then it's another thing to kind of coach them to do that. 

So, so true, and it will in some ways it will even give back to us if we do it. We do it for the others, but we're part of the team, and as the leader, even though many of us will tend to see ourselves as, you know, at the same level as everybody else, and in some ways, yes of course we are. In other ways, by definition, if you're the leader, you've got a level of influence that is even more, and we want to recognize that and see the opportunity it brings, the responsibility it brings too. So, my first answer, you'll see, you won't be surprised by it, but we forget it as leaders: is to do and be seen as doing these things. So, we have to walk the talk for real. So, and here's a very simple applicable way to do this: you're coming back from your weekend, people are asking how was your weekend, you went for a walk or a hike, let's say, on the weekend. So instead of just saying, great weekend, had a hike, it was beautiful, how about you, wait a second, instead, went for a hike, was super great, I made sure I kept this hike because given the demands we're facing, I needed to fill my bucket again. So now what you're doing is you're conveying number one, you're showing you're human, you also need to take action about it, you're conveying the message that here we can talk about these things, and that I am walking that talk, and there's nothing, no words, no nothing that will be more powerful than this. Or you're leaving at the end of the day because you have a spin class, instead of just saying, “I really need to leave, I have a personal commitment”, call it, “I'm leaving because I have a spin class I really want to make to”, nothing's going to call that message stronger than this. So that's one example. Another example within the teams, maybe two, on one of your regular agenda items, you put resilience there, literally just the word resilience, and it doesn't need to be a long item, it could be a five-minute item where you just say to the team, “I was listening to this podcast with Lauren Scott and we were talking about resilience and it just, it totally clicked with how I already think but it reminded me that I don't say it, and so I wanted to share with this the importance that I see for each of us to build our resilience individually but also together. And I would welcome over the next few meetings, each of us bringing up ideas on how we do this. So, I'm going to start today and tell you one of the things I did on the weekend to build my resilience is go for my hike, that's one of my things”. And then over time, you can share different things, you can make a bit more time maybe on the agenda and ask as a team, let's identify one aspect of what we do that is an irritant, a stressor, and then I'll take it away or we can take it away as a team to put a microscope on it to see ways in which we can make it a bit easier for all of us. That's a way to proactively protect our resilience as a team. So, these are some examples where, bottom line, you're talking about it, that's the short answer, and then you can do that in the various ways.

I love that idea of modeling, and it makes me think of how much being a manager is, you can apply so much parenting advice as well, of modeling the right behavior. As a leader then, and as a professional, you touched on it:  there's so much of a drive to deliver on our objectives, and often it's coming from a genuine desire to do that. If you are a professional and our listeners are self-identifying with this and they're trying to achieve their goals, how do you encourage them to then create that space so that they can then model it for their respective teams? Like, what are some of those steps that they can take?

Yes, so in terms of, say, building a resilience plan and working towards that goal, you mean, or in general?

Exactly, yeah, as I would say, it could be a leader but just a professional within the workplace that is just super driven to their outcomes but then do recognize they need to put their oxygen mask on first. They need to start working on this resiliency, what can they do to kind of get started there? 

Yes, well, what I do in the book is, I've extracted just a few approaches, I would say, all you need, just like the minimum viable process you need here, to have enough information to get to something personalized. But I'll give you one aspect of this process that for many people they say, okay, I just did this one part and it clicked me into my next action, and here it is: it's having clarity on, right now, in this context, so the last month, next month, right now, two columns, your sources of supply, what brings you energy, and your sources of demands. Okay, so so far, everyone's nodding and saying yes, that's easy enough, I already know, why would I do this? And here is why you would do this, it's because, as high performers, we tend to be optimistically biased. It has advantages, but here, it actually has a disadvantage. What it means is, we all tend to think we do way more on the supply column than we actually are doing. So, people will tell me, oh yeah, I try to go to the gym three, four times a week, and then I say, okay, how about past week, how does it look like? And then they say, well, last week was particularly busy, so no, but you know, uh, no, that means it's not going on this. So, we tend to overestimate this, and we tend to underestimate the demands. We say, oh, that is obviously, I mean, obviously, I'm going to support my friend that's through her separation, for example, you know, it's not a thing, or this small thing, no, it's just a small project. We're minimizing, and how many times, right, people, you think, oh, this thing will take me 15 minutes, two hours later, you're still there, because you underestimate how much time things take. That's again, it has positive aspects to this, but sometimes, in this case, what it means is, we're going to have a very biased perspective of our situation, we'll think all is good, and therefore, we need to do nothing. If you do this for real, you're going to see, on your supply column, there will be very little, you'll realize there is a lot on the demand side, professional, personal demands, you love just got a promotion, demands you don't want, co-parenting, and it's challenging right now, whatever, and then helping an older parent, helping a friend who's moving, going to a wedding out of the country for someone, some positive, some negative, but they're all demands. And then you look at this, and you're like, oh, okay, that is, it's not going to work down the road because we're also launching a big project in six months. And so, that one exercise, I would say, is one step that often will, on its own, just help people redirect some of their choices. 

It's such a good exercise, I'm already starting to make / mentally make my list, I'm going to do this after. I was curious too, in your work in writing your book, The Resilience Plan, did you notice if there is a difference in terms of how generations approach resilience? Is, for example, Gen Z approaching it in a different way than maybe Gen X or the Baby Boomer generation?

There's differences, but they all need it, my book is going into university bookstores, and so that parents can, and you know, early career professionals can start thinking this way sooner. 

What is a bit different is, the younger generations have heard about the importance of their mental health, the existence of their mental health, way more than some other generations. So that's different, but it doesn't mean that they necessarily have the tools to be proactive and strategic about how to plan for it in the context of this world of work that for them, they're entering. And so, and that, so that's part of what happens with the younger generations. 

The generations that have been in the workplace for a while, the more senior leaders, as we have them right now, often have learned most of their professional beliefs at a time where dominant discourse was very much saying, in order to succeed, you work at all times. The more you work, the more successful you're going to be. If you're not working, there's a problem with you, you're not ever going to get anywhere, you know, these kinds of things. And so, there is some undoing of this that needs to be done, recognizing that for them, in their context, at the time, it was adaptive and actually led to very positive things. And now, needs to shift for the next, the next whatever few years for them, because number one, their levels of demands are too high, number two, the overall population that they're working with is at a different place. So, it varies, it does vary across generations, like we just said, it varies across countries, it varies across industries. You're talking to someone in finance will be different to talking to someone in healthcare, to talking to someone in education. So, there are beliefs that are inherent to various professions that will also be part of it, and then there's individual difference, so it's a combination, sometimes group differences, but also the individual. 

I definitely feel like I've observed so much of what you're explaining, of the differences. But I do like this idea too, that, for example, the older generations that are in place, it's not to say that the way they did it is wrong, it's just that what got us here won't get us there. So, it's just trying to think of that longer term vision. I love that. You also mentioned at the top how much the pandemic has shifted in terms of how we approach resiliency. Maybe in some ways, it was positive, in that it opened the door to speaking more about mental health. 

Have you seen other impacts over the past four years, we’re recording in March 2024, so really almost to the day, have you seen a large impact in terms of how we're looking at resiliency?

I would say yes, for more people, it has stayed on the radar, it didn't sort of go away as this particular challenge has decreased, and it's a good thing, it's a good thing because other challenges are here of all kinds, including AI coming in our workplaces. So that's another good reason to keep it, and I think there's also just more personal understanding, more self-awareness that it, in a much more realistic way, it used to be like, if you talk to someone about being more self-aware, they were thinking that this was this kind of weird, too much personal dive, that would, in which you could lose yourself, and you don't have time for this. Whereas now, pairing this discourse with what we know on emotional intelligence, and what makes us uniquely leaders also in the context of AI taking on the number of managerial aspects of things. So, what is our unique contribution? It is bringing our best leadership, it is bringing our best emotional intelligence, for which we do need to pay attention to what that aspect of what makes us human, and how we can optimize it and protect it, so that we can bring our best moving forward. 

So, that's one implication, another one too, is that it's not because the pandemic is, in a number of ways, moving to the past, it's still present in some ways and possibly moving to other things, we'll see, but the point is, this size of chronic demand doesn't go away quickly. So, for most people, the level at which we are now, having done all the adaptation that was required there and after, and coming sort of, in some ways, back, in some ways, not or differently after, means that this has, is still part of what has been a demand for most of us over the past few years. So, we want to be realistic with this, it's not like the past four years have been gloriously easy, so that's normal, to take that into consideration.

Then those supply and demand columns: I'm wondering if the way you guide, you know, our listeners, for example, in approaching the idea of resilience, if, for example, your environment is going to be changing, could be shorter or long-term. So, a short-term might be, I'm traveling for work next week, does my strategy for resilience change? Or it could also be a bigger one, like my kids are going off to university, it's going to completely change our household dynamic. I'm wondering how you guide people toward, and professionals in adapting to that resilience, whether it's a short-term change or that long-term change. 

Such great - two really good examples, and to two different recommended approaches. So, if we're having, you know, because it's, and you'll see the parallels with building a strategy here on the business side, I won't do the full sort of translation, but you, you'll hear it here. So, if we right now are building, say, your Lauren personal custom strategic resilience plan, we've looked at your values, your supply demand, your context, and we've defined your pillars and the actions or tactics that you have everywhere here. So, we've got this, it's based on your context. In your context, we know, at times, you have business travel, you may have a couple of / hopefully a couple weeks of vacation, something like this. So basically, what we're saying is, your overall context here is pretty much the same, it's just that there are different moments in it. It's almost like a different quarter here, where different things are happening during a certain period of time. So, then what we would want to have is just a slightly different version of the current plan. We don't need a new plan, the whole context is very similar, you're just traveling to a country for the next week or so, but you do want an adaptation because some very concrete parts of the logistics are a bit different. So, you do want to adapt. So, if one of your actions was, for example, three times a week spin class, let's say, in your usual location, and now you're traveling, yes, that will need some thinking because it will probably look different, maybe it's going to be 10-minute exercise with body weight in my hotel room three times during this trip, but I needed to think about it, I've made my adaptation. 

However, if we're looking at a change like a significant change in your overall context, the amount of people who live in the house, two children going to, you know, young adults going to university, things like this, this is going to change the context, it's going to change your schedule, your life, it will change many aspects, not all of it, but, you know, some key aspects, context, right, it's a different context, different strategy there. 

Yeah, so it'd be, if it's a real-life change or chapter change, it might be actually creating a new plan versus taking your current plan for those short-term things like a work trip where you're just maybe looking at your supply side, saying, I can't do this while I'm away, here's an alternative to fill my cup. Okay, great, and then from your book itself, and I definitely encourage everybody to check out The Resilience Plan, but if you were to say there are maybe three quick actions that our listeners could already apply and distill from all of the work that went into your book, what would those be?

Yes, so first, I would say increase your self-awareness, and I'll give you a concrete way to do it because sometimes it feels nebulous. If you're already doing a bit of like meditation, you're it, you're covered, because it's part of what it would be, and I would encourage people to consider it, it's very solidly backed up by research. But if right now you're like, no, I know it when I'm sick, and that's it, like I, you know, don't have time, print a calendar from the internet and put it at a place that you visit every night, and every night take 2 seconds to write, on a 0 to 10 scale, your level of energy average today. 10's fabulous, zero, you, you didn't get out of bed, put a number. It will take you 3 seconds, at the most, that's it, leave it there, move on, do it every night. What this will do is it will just allow you, it will be internally consistent, it's always you rating it, even though it's a, it otherwise a very personal scale, but you will see it, okay, 8.5, 8.2, 7 and a half, you'll see it, it goes down before you're like at two over here. So, that's a way to increase your self-awareness. 

The second thing I would say is, look at, if I were to just go straight to actions for right now, because the, my overall recommendation would be make a plan, but the second would say, do that supply and demand sheet, because that is one easy way, I've described it already, to increase your visibility and possibly move you into action here. And number three, I would say, consider making a plan actually, being strategic about it. And I say this number three because once you've increased a bit of your awareness, you've started making some changes, you will start to see how this works in the direction you want, and the plan will just push you even further. So, that's what I would say. 

That's so great, and even just the quantifying at the end of the day, what your energy level was like, I think that's brilliant because you're probably going to be able to nip it in the bud, you're not going to go from a 10 to a 2, you're probably going to see that decline. Very, very smart. 

And you are in the middle of a book tour, so I'm very curious as to how do you take from your book and apply it to yourself? Do you have any, like, what are your supply-side refills, or how do you manage that? Because I'm sure that is just like any big product launch that a lot of our listeners experience, it's that, maybe on steroids. So, I'd love to know what you've done personally.

Yes, well, I, yes, I definitely have worked to apply some of those things, even while writing the book, prior to launching, being realistic about which demands I would add around the launch date, not from experience, but listening to others and what I could learn there. And so, at this point, the kinds of things that I've built over time and I work to maintain, and I, I say this, this way, because I work to maintain, meaning, sometimes, most of the time, successful, and at times, no, no, it's not happening, need to try again tomorrow, but it stays on the plan, and therefore, yes, I try again tomorrow, and, you know, likely successful there. I do fit in the physical activity, it's something that's always been part of my life, and it's much better if I make sure it stays there. And I've learned, and I share with others, the less you feel like doing it, the more you need it, go. So, yeah, just go, no conversation in your head, go, get out, and sometimes people will say, well, but it's raining, or, and then I say, well, never run into, I've never seen an academic piece of research saying exercise is fabulous for your mental health, except if it's raining. So, that's one of mine. 

I love, I've been investing in building my meditation time, initially, it was very hard to even do a consistent once a week, five minutes, and now it's more frequent, a bit longer, and, and as many people, if you've done this, you see the benefit in itself, and becomes a motivator. And I'm very excited about this, and then that's much as I can, doing some of the other things that we know from research helps, making sure I'm connecting with people that I enjoy speaking to, and frankly, I have to say, conversations like this one, are so, I'm so thankful for them. I mean, it's, had I not written a book, I, I unlikely would have ever had this time, speaking with you Lauren, and, and having this, that's true, great conversation, and for me, that's actually part of what's exciting and nourishing. I am balancing it with other things that are just for me and all that, but that's one part of this overall experience that I'm just so grateful for. 

Great tips, and I heard somebody say the other day about meditation, that it's almost your daily check-in on your own personal strategy, that you have this quiet time. So if you're talking about resilience being a strategic plan, it's absolutely kind of that board meeting with yourself, where you can really see where you're at. 

If our listeners would like to learn more and to read your book, where would you recommend that they go check out?

Yes, they can go to theresilienceplan.com, and they can find me on LinkedIn as well. I always love connecting with people there, so very easy to find.

And we do like to end every episode with the same question, and it's been so wonderful having you on the show, because I can't imagine a better fit with the topic of The Resilience Report. But we do like to ask the question, which is, what do you think it will take for businesses and leaders to be resilient going forward?

Well, I'm going to say, it will take for them to think strategically about their resilience, talk strategically about it, and then implement behaviors that are strategic, all three. Think that way, talk that way, and behave that way. 

Thank you so much, this has been such a pleasure speaking with you. I'm going to have, I have homework tonight, and I'm sure listeners will as well, so thank you so much for your time today, I really appreciate it.

Thank you, Lauren, it was a pleasure.