California: Making Corporate Emissions Reporting Mandatory ft. Catherine Atkin (Carbon Accountable)

[Host: Lauren Scott] If sustainability were a professional sport (and let’s face it, sometimes it certainly can feel like it!) our next guest would be in the first round draft pick.

I am so honored to be joined by Catherine Atkin, Co-Founder and Director of Carbon Accountable, whose expertise has been pivotal in advancing corporate transparency on greenhouse gas emissions. Catherine and her team played a leading role in shaping California’s SB 253 Climate Corporate Data Accountability Act, a landmark piece of legislation with implications that extend far beyond the state’s borders.

Catherine is a climate attorney and entrepreneur working at the intersection of law, policy and innovation to build systems that can accelerate global decarbonization and ensure equitable and sustainable development. She is a recognized leader in climate change and urban sustainability with deep expertise in national and sub-national GHG accounting policies and implementation frameworks. Catherine received a BA from Stanford University, a law degree from UC Berkeley School of Law (UCB), and a master’s degree in Urban Planning from University of California Los Angeles (UCLA).

In today’s episode, we turn our focus to the critical topic of greenhouse gas reporting—a cornerstone of corporate accountability in the fight against climate change. What does it entail, and how does it balance the dynamics between voluntary action and mandatory compliance?

Together, we’ll explore the importance of clarity and transparency in combating greenwashing, the role of policy in driving change, and what it means to lead with resilience in an increasingly complex global landscape. Catherine will also share her reflections on the sustainability journey, her experiences at COP29, and the insights she’s gained throughout her impactful career.

Thank you for joining us. Let’s dive into this important conversation.

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The longtime listeners of The Resilience Report know that much of what we focus on really is at the intersection of sustainability and business. When we're doing this work, we often look to California as a kind of guiding light as to best practices and what we can expect to come and impact our day-to-day within the business world. While we may be familiar with the regulations, maybe not all of us are as familiar with the masterminds behind these regulations. That's why I'm so excited for today's guest, Catherine Atkin, who is joining us on The Resilience Report. Welcome, Catherine!

Lauren, great to be here, thank you so much. I really appreciate it, and that's probably a little too kind of an introduction. It was really a group effort. I'm excited to talk about what we've been up to in California.

Well, to fully level set, I always like to assume that not everybody is as comfortable with the vocabulary. This might seem like a really basic question, but when we talk about greenhouse gas reporting, can you help share what we mean by that?

Sure, greenhouse gas reporting is really our way to understand what's happening with regards to the GHG emissions associated with corporations and their own production but also what happens in their supply chains both upstream and downstream. Really, for all of us to be smart about taking climate action and informing decarbonization, we need the data. I mean, that's how it starts, right? We don't have all the resources in the world; we need to do things in a smart way. A GHG emissions profile is really the beginning, the foundation of really smart climate planning on behalf of companies. But as we're also seeing, investors and capital markets are increasingly wanting to understand what's happening in their portfolios or in their prospective portfolio companies, and then we've got consumers wanting this data too. It's really just that baseline of like what's happening in a company.

And you are co-founder and director of Carbon Accountable, where you are able to bring both the legal and technical lens of digging into this data for companies. Can you share a little bit more about that work?

Yeah, Carbon Accountable was launched really just about four years ago as the vehicle for the California disclosure policy. What we were seeing out there, as I did work actually at the Stanford Law School, I have a policy institute looking at carbon data. I'm an attorney by training, and what we were starting to see in the space is that we weren't really getting the kind of catalyzation of the climate economy. We weren't moving and creating the markets that are required. So, in looking at where the breakdown is, why aren't we getting there because we know we need to move towards radical decarbonization and making the green economy a win. The fact that we just didn't have this baseline data was a big gap. While voluntary emissions reporting had its time, it was really important early on when we were trying to figure out how do you do a GHG emissions profile. Companies were learning what it takes to build the capacity internally. The reality was that we're just not getting there with this kind of incomplete data we were getting, sort of a Swiss cheese. Some companies were doing some parts of a scoped one, two, and three emissions GHG profile; some would be doing others. So, there was really no way for us to build the confidence in the market to drive climate tech and decarbonization. Carbon Accountable's goal was to look at what we've done in California and take a page out of our legacy of leadership and saying well, California can put down a marker that can then have not only effects in the state but in the country and globally. So that led to the creation of the bill that is now SB 253, enshrined into law, which is the first state-based but also a US requirement for GHG disclosure for any company doing business in California. 

I would love to dig in a little bit deeper on the state bill. So I know that Carbon Accountable served really as the architect and the advisor on the legal and the technical implications of the bill. Maybe just for those like myself who are quite far away from putting that kind of project into place, what does that even look like from that architecture and implementation standpoint?

I'd like to say you know most things and most policies that are created are really built on whatever has happened before it that can be kind of repurposed for the particular challenge that you're trying to address as a policy matter. So you know, in California, we also did benefit as I mentioned from the fact that we did have voluntary disclosure regimes internationally right. And so we do have a robust kind of body of knowledge and I will also say the fact that we have a globally recognized standard for GHG accounting and reporting. It's called the GHG Protocol. We weren't starting from scratch, right? That standard is what you are seeing in all of the reporting regimes internationally. And you know we can talk a little bit more about what else has been going on because California is joining other jurisdictions that are putting these mandatory reporting requirements in place. So you know, you look for a standard that's always like the foundation of the policy like what are you asking people to do. We have the GHG Protocol, we don't need California to have its own, you know, flavor of reporting ice cream. So we've got the standard, and then the question is, well, what do we ask? Who reports? And that's where we said if you do business in California and we also decided that it should not just be public companies but also private. We see that if you're a publicly traded company and you're doing this, we want to level the playing field and we also know that in the United States, for instance, for billion-dollar revenue corporations which is the cut for this bill, for every one publicly traded company there are two privately held companies. 

So if we don't start getting them lined up to be taking, you know, being smart about what they're doing, we're not going to be addressing the climate challenge that we're facing. So those were sort of the elements of kind of the foundation for the policy and then you know we went to Sacramento. I mean that's kind of like how a bill becomes a law and that's the wonderful thing about a democracy, right? Is that you can roll up your sleeves and you know I've had experience in other areas you know developing legal frameworks and proposals so went to Sacramento and Senator Scott Weiner is one of those kind of lions of the senate in California. We have so many great legislators but he was one of those you know you're looking for somebody who it's a relatively new topic for policymakers, right? Like GHG emissions, corporations, how do you know that this is new stuff? So finding somebody who was really going to get it and be able to articulate the imperative for it and frankly also just to say this was not an easy bill to get passed. It there was vociferous a business lobby opposition I mean we had great leading companies came out and made all the difference you know Apple, Google, Microsoft, Salesforce but the main business lobby was you know very opposed and spent a lot of I you know tens of millions of dollars to lobby against the both you know this bill and we also there was two bills in California SP 253 was GHG emissions disclosure which is what I was really most connected to but we also had a companion bill SB 261 which is a climate risk disclosure bill. So you know the getting a legislator that can really withstand that kind of business opposition is important and that's where California has that great legacy of legislators saying you know we've got to move things forward. So that's a little bit of how it went and you know there was so many twists and turns and I think the space the ESG and sustainability space is really moving quickly and so we really benefited from a lot of what we're seeing in terms of just companies getting on board, other jurisdictions passing laws so you know we benefited from those tailwinds.

And to repeat the term that used that legacy of leadership in California is certainly visible and I think for most of us in the space who are interacting with California we recognize how important of a body it is in the sense that it is actually the world's fifth largest economy (which always blows my mind) but that I'm sure is certainly what struck such a positive and negative from those different businesses because it is such a strong economy, it has such an impact on businesses around the world. Could you maybe speak to that a little bit more because sometimes when you think of a state bill you think it's just within the state but it has such a global reach.

You know when you think about making a difference on the environment I mean you know we're just these disclosure bills are just one in a series of like incredible sort of nation and globally leading environmental and climate policies that have been put in place in California so it is a proud legacy. I mean we've had you know early on the toxics movement you move to focus more on climate and the environment we that led to the cap and trade program in California, the low carbon fuel standard these are all incredibly important components of kind of our global infrastructure for addressing climate and they have gone on to be sort of the you know other jurisdictions other countries have you know taken you know pages out of the playbook. That is something that makes a huge difference in thinking I mean California thinks about itself and like well if something's hard like maybe California should do it right because we have that legacy we have a legislature that gets elected based on leadership like this so I think that and really just to Recognize too, you know, California is experiencing the ravages of climate change, right? Like the forest fires, the flooding, and so I think you know if you're really going to be a public official, if you're going to lead for the benefit of Californians, you can't. GHG emissions don't stop at the border of California. You can't just clean up your own backyard and protect the citizens and the environment in California; you have to address the fact that we have to decrease global emissions if we want to protect ourselves, any point on the globe. So, we're in this together, and I think that's the approach that we took in California. And you know, it was for lots of things kind of just lined up. I'd have to say I've been part of a lot of important or like what I thought were worthy causes; they don't always come to fruition, and the fact that this happened was really a testament to, you know, I think, a smart policy, a great author. I also think the fact that the EU, you know, really put a marker down with the CSRD, I mean there were already then companies that were going to have to be reporting like these things happened during the course of this campaign.

And then I also want to just recognize that companies, I think there was really an inflection point where large corporations and leaders leading climate forward companies realize that it's not enough for them just to be good actors for their own company, that they have to be stewards of the sector. And I think that was really important because you started to see a pushback against business lobbies that were opposing this bill but others and saying you know what it's not okay, you don't speak for us and we have to sort of step out. So I really think that was a tremendous benefit. I'm seeing that in other policies now, so that's really great. 

And with that company lens, I know a lot of our listeners tend to be really concerned about greenwashing, and I know that that is such a driving force behind the need for transparency and the need for reporting. So, can you share how you've seen this translate with the implementation of this bill and how we're trying to tackle greenwashing, especially as it pertains to greenhouse gas emissions in that case?

You know, it's so important to understand too, one of our real kind of goals with this bill was not only to give companies the data they need, the insights they need to understand where they can take a scarce dollar and move it to decarbonize most with the greatest impact, but also and inform those financial markets. But as you're saying, really because we are at risk of losing the confidence of the public, and that is something that is going to have devastating impacts on our kind of political will because we have a lot more that needs to happen and we have to have the public confident that we are actually doing what we're saying. So, the greenwashing is just something that we absolutely had to clean up and we've seen that also with the carbon markets and carbon credits, you know, we're really at all levels when the data isn't verifiable, when there isn't accountability, when we don't have assurance levels on the data then we are really creating this sort of very soft ground for building a strong economy.

Yeah, so important and, and for California, the consumer piece, you know, that was really important to us. Oftentimes, this conversation is about investors and we think that's tremendously important but we also really recognize that consumers you know need this data as well. 

And I would love to go back at the top you're talking about the shift from voluntary to mandatory reporting and then there's certainly a shift over in terms of the regulations from maybe what was more of a carrot approach to a stick approach with regulations. Do you feel like one is maybe better or needed at this point in time or can they be complimentary? What have you seen with your deep experience in the space? 

I mean, you know all, it's both and. I mean we absolutely need both the carrots and the sticks and I think, you know, there's not that much controversy about the carrot right? I mean I think that regardless of kind of jurisdiction or political affiliation like we know, I mean there's no doubt that we need finance and support. I mean you cannot displace these legacy markets without investing in the new and next thing until it can become stand on its own without the need for a green premium. And so we've obviously seen that with solar and we need to recognize that we have to like we have to invest in our climate tech solutions but I do think that for me the compliance markets are also critical and I think we saw that with voluntary reporting, you're just not going to get companies to do that kind of disclosure that then kind of moves them on a path for change unless that's a requirement. And I think in some ways the way I look at it, it's not like these are entities that don't want to do the right thing, you have to make them do that do the right thing. I think what we're trying to do is say, you, we're taking this, you don't have to go into the C-suite and convince them that this is important and that there'll be long-term economic benefits, you get to go in and say, you know what, it's not really a conversation about whether we should or when we should do it, we have to do it. So I also loved seeing CSOs right, Chief Sustainability officers, you know, on the one hand, if these mandatory requirements put more pressure on the company, you know, that's not easy, I understand that. At the same time, it gives the sustainability teams in companies the opportunity to be at the table in a much bigger way and to provide leadership. So I see this, you know, kind of the compliance requirements as a compliment to the carrots and I think, you know, we're going to see like the EU. I mean, compared to the EU, what we just did in California is, I mean, I'm super proud of it, but it's kind of like undergrad. I mean, compared, if you go to the CSRD, it's like a postdoc; there's so much it's asking for and that's super exciting. I think we have to understand the United States; like we have a different political environment and so it's like we have to just figure out, it's kind of like we're all in this big global team together; what can everybody do, where can they push the envelope, where can they add some sugar as well? And so I think that's the way I look at it. 

I know a number of us working in the space were pretty disheartened with the SEC starting and stopping this past year. And we're definitely looking to California to Europe to bridge the gap in the interim, but do you think there's any learning for us in the sustainability space from the SEC situation like anything that we can apply to the way we're approaching the problem? 

I think the short answer is that I think we were just victims of larger forces that we just don't have the political power and, you know, to overcome at this point. So, the SEC rule, I think, you know, we know that even as it was being drafted, finalized, there was tremendous business lobby opposition, and that's why we unfortunately saw Scope 3 drop out, not only the opposition but the threat of legal challenge. And I do think the, you know, the SEC has, you know, because there is a question of the delegation of authority to the agency which we don't have in California because the legislators passed the law themselves. You know, there were some differences, but I would just say that, you know, while I think we have to think about how we position these issues and certainly there's a conversation about how to talk about ESG, you know how to make this a win-win across the aisle. I don't think that isn't the reason the SEC rule is not going to see the light of day, right? It's really because there are real interests that are opposed to it, and we obviously have an incoming administration and a pick for the SEC chair who's already said, and had said before, this is like we should not be doing this kind of thing. So yeah, I think we just have to be mindful of the broader political environment, you know, you can't. Yeah, we got to do a couple of things at one time, walk and chew gum, but you know, I think it's unfortunate but I also realize that, you know, it just means that states have to pick up the slack. So it's kind of also been gratifying to be, you know, an opportunity to give an example of that right, which before people were really thinking about states as an area of focus, kind of demonstrating there are real opportunities to make a difference. And so we're going to need to see a lot more of this kind of activity.

Rrecently you were at COP, and you shared that you felt like politics and policies are both headwinds and tailwinds for all of us in this space. Can you share a little bit more? It sounds like you were just saying might be seeing some at the state level, some at the federal level, but I would love to hear more, especially on such a global stage. 

Yeah, I mean, you know, going to COP, what the good news is, you cannot be at COP and read all the same bulletins. So, I mean, there is a way in which like we're all experts on and not experts on what happens at COP, but I would say this. I do feel like sometimes, you know, we expect COP to deliver things that, if we actually looked at what the conditions are going into COP, we shouldn't be surprised at the lack of progress, right? So COP is a reflection of the larger environment; it doesn't create it. And so I think that, you know, we're seeing that the hard work to line up, kind of from the grassroots to the private sector to government, to have the political will to increase ambition, is a very kind of like a step forward, maybe a step back, a couple of steps forward. You know, we're making progress, but as we all know, not at the pace that we feel like we need to. So that was more, you know, what I felt about COP, is that we really need to, you know, recognize that we do need consumers to be educated and active because in those countries that need to move on climate, I mean, they have to feel that there's a political push for that. 

And so, you know, I certainly, when it comes to the EU, as I said, doing a lot, and it's kind of amazing to me how much their policies are having this ripple effect globally. So I would say on the good news side, when there are jurisdictions and, you know, that take a stand and then drive markets, it is affecting, you know, not just them but the broader market. For instance, the Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism or CBAM, I am seeing that like that is going to have a tremendous effect right when the EU says we're going to level the playing field; we're asking more of our own companies, but we're going to level the playing field, and that means that other countries, those supplier nations, are going to adjust and have to adjust to stay in business. I saw a lot of conversation about that, that we need that; other countries are already figuring that they have to support their economies to respond to those requests for Scope 3 data, you know, to make sure that they're globally competitive in the markets that are being created. So I also saw a lot of kind of good news. 

Well, I think all of us will take whatever good news you can share coming out of that. And you did mention it earlier, this idea of, I mean, ESG is certainly polarized and absolutely politicized at the moment, and you were talking about, is there this possibility to frame solutions in a way that reaches across the aisle? Do you feel like that is actually possible, or do you feel like we've gotten so far apart that we're almost just not even hearing each other at this point? 

You know, I've sort of two minds on this. I don't think we should get too distracted with like being worried that we're, you know, like we have to redo the whole and never say the word ESG again, or, you know, at the same time, you know, done a lot of work in politics and policy over time, and you know, we do need to be smart about how we make our arguments. And I think it's like, regardless of what you call it, the reality is that there are challenges and opportunities that the corporate sector is going to face. There are actual, we are seeing the effects of climate change now, right? So climate risk is something that is absolutely part of the bottom line. So I think, you know, we have an opportunity to say, in the short term, for your company to be resilient, you need to have the data so that you can start to make smart decisions to ensure the kind of the long-term strength of your company. And I think that when it comes to the opportunities for driving the markets, I do think that, regardless, to me, you know, if the capital markets, you know, finance doesn't talk about sustainability or doesn't say that's their fund is this thing, I think what we're seeing is that we're continuing to see a desire, especially from consumers, for these products. So to me, it's like, it doesn't really matter what you call them, but let's just say we are that we know that there is a need to support companies to be successful in the future to respond to consumers who want a clean, sustainable future, and the market will need to respond to that.

I do have to ask you too, because I feel like if I had done your work with the state bill, I would have just been like, okay, I'm done, I can retire now, you know, to just have that legacy. But I have the feeling that with your commitment to the space, that you are probably working on a ton of projects and the follow-up of the projects. Are you working on anything in particular that you're really excited about and that you can share? 

Yeah, I mean, a couple of things, one is that, you know, after going to COP, I had the chance to go visit North Macedonia in the Western Balkans, and one of the reasons I'm excited about working with those countries, and those are a set of countries that are seeking to accede into the European Union, right? So they, the thing is, they're being impacted by the regulatory environment right now, and what I feel like I want to be part of is, I had the opportunity to create kind of the forcing function, our part, you know, my little part, California's part, to then create that drive for global better GHG data, which will also drive the need to decarbonize. I also feel like, you know, the large companies, I never had a problem asking, you know, asking them to put the money, you know, invest the money that's required to get a hold of your GHG emissions data, right? At the same time, I am aware of the larger global economy, and that there are a lot of, countries that main economy are small and medium-sized enterprises, and it is really important that they not get left behind when, when we talk about the kind of equity and whether it's like, you know, the South and the North. I really do feel like when it comes to this, I am also passionate about democratizing access to these products, and so that's one of the projects I'm working on in the Western Balkans is how do we create sort of open-source solutions, and then also for those companies that are going to face, you know, financial hurdles to getting a grip, and I do think we have some great technology solutions that can help with that, but also helping governments put together the systems to support their economies to be successful in this kind of green transition. So that's one thing. 

You know, I'm excited I'm working on, as kind of a follow-on, you know, thinking about disclosure. One thing we are going to be doing in California is advancing a bill to focus on the power of procurement, government procurement, and the opportunity we have as California to take that, you know, the same way we're the fifth largest economy. We have huge, you know, multi-billion-dollar investments in all kinds of goods and services, and so we think that in the same way that the state of California said if you want to do business in our state, you need to share your GHG emissions information, climate risk information. We think the state has a chance to lead by requiring some major suppliers in California to do the same thing. And so, in this case, we're also kind of playing off of the great work that happened at the White House at the federal level to do similar work, which we also think may not see the light of day given the change in administration. So that's another area, and I think I'm excited about that because I think that's something states could do. So, I'm also excited to do something where it can kind of be, like, that's an easy, not easy, but that's something that I consider low-hanging fruit that could drive, you know, important activity at the state level. Those are a couple of things I'm interested in.

So it doesn't sound like 2025 is going to be any less busy for you then!

I mean, I don't know about you, Lauren, I mean, I see how much you do, and I just, I feel so fortunate to be able to do this work at this time, and you know, and there's so much to do and so much to learn. I feel like, you know, I get to do this thing every day, yeah, so it's terrific. And yeah, so I'm excited to do that and excited to work with people that, you know, I see, you know, what are the things that I can. I think we all have to think this way, what do we, what's our special sauce? Like, we don't do it all right, like nobody's thing is the answer, like no climate tech solution is going to do the whole thing, or no policy is going to make it happen. I mean, a lot of these are ecosystems and kind of lining up things to like unlock impact, and so that's the kind of thing I'm really interested in being part of. 

Have you had this interest as far back as you can remember, or was there a catalyst moment where you thought, oh, I really want to dedicate at least part of my career to this space? 

I mean, you know, with the other fun part about this is like I'm a latecomer to this space. I mean, there's a lot of people that have been doing this work in climate, kind of broader ESG for a long time, for decades when, like, nobody, you know, when it was not the cool kid thing to do, and I have so much respect for that. You know, I actually was in that kind of edtech space, as I said, I'm an attorney, and I did a lot of other things, and then, what as I was thinking about, like, what do I want to sink my teeth into, like, what, for me, where could I bring what I've done to, you know, into a place where I would hope I could have some impact and add to the collective, you know, efforts, and so climate is one of them. And so yeah, I mean, I, this is not something I was doing as a young attorney, and it's great to see young people really excited to have these jobs and to see so many more jobs and to see, like, every job's going to be a climate kind of job, so yeah, that's my story. 

And do you feel like, even if it let's say was that what five 10 years ago or so?

Yeah, it's really in the last five years that I've really kind of moved into this space and got really focused. 

And do you think if you could go back those five or six years and share something about sustainability and the work, what it was going to be like over the next few years, would you have any advice to Catherine five to six years ago? 

I mean, you know, I really wish I had gotten into the space earlier. I just think it's so important and so interesting and full of people that are very generous, like that is another part I love, love about this space is that everybody knows, like the job is so big, you know, and we need the smartest people from every walk of life doing every kind of thing, so I find that, you know, just so gratifying. So yeah, I wish I'd gotten started earlier at it, and you know, I would also just say, for me, regardless of where you are in your career, I also think just realizing that, I mean, the, there's a real opportunity to make a difference, and you know, just be bold, like decide what you're good at, and then know that there's something for you to offer, and then kind of like push yourself a little farther than you know, you might feel like, why am I the person to do that? I mean, I think we need a lot more people who are like, well, why not me, right? And I think that is a critical part of this, it's, you know, we need a lot more people that are just like, not just kind of, we're just going to do it, and if we're not successful, we'll be adding to the collective will for it to happen the next time. 

Well, it sounds like that's probably a big part of your motivation, but do you have any tools or tricks that you keep in your own toolbox to be able to keep on coming back and recommitting to the work because, to your point with the state bill, it got challenged and challenged and challenged, and it wasn't just easy. What is it that you are able to lean on in those moments to be able to keep on coming back to the work? 

You know, I think for me, I realize that most things, you know, that, and we know this in life, right: the things that are the most worthwhile are always difficult. I mean, if they're not difficult, they're not that big a deal, and so I think that when you hit a headwind, to not be like, oh, maybe this is the wrong thing, but to say like, oh, I'm expecting this, like, I'm trying to do something that's, you know, a little bit outside of my comfort zone, I'm maybe stepping on some toes, right? And to have a collaborative spirit, but to also really just be okay with, like, I think in this space, I think we all have to feel uncomfortable, that is, we were in a situation we have to change, so everybody has to be in a change management stance, so it's like, that's okay, and, and we just need to work together to do it, so that would be kind of, I would say, that's the work, the ethos. 

Thank you so much for sharing all of your work, everything that's coming up, I'm so excited to follow along. We do like to end every episode with the same question, however, which is, what do you think it will take for businesses and leaders to be resilient going forward? 

I think that running a business is always challenging, right, and so, you know, I recognize that companies have a lot on their plates. I think that, you know, what it's going to take to be a successful business going forward is to recognize that the climate is changing, like just to be successful in managing that is going to require like real focus and attention. And that means, you know, getting smart, investing in the people that you need to, you know, be that those sort of stewards for you as you go on that path to both, you know, be a robust business but also be a sustainable business. I also think that recognizing that the consumers really want to see these, you know, they want to see corporate leadership. I think that's only going to increase. I mean, we know we're seeing generally in society, the populace is, you know, kind of has a jaundiced eye to business; they're, they're not sure about what their motivations are, and I think, you know, we can decry that or, you know, say it's not totally fair, but the reality is that companies are much more accountable on all levels, so I think just kind of recognizing that you have company has a great opportunity to really get ahead of things and to be seen as a leader by showing that they care about what's happening currently for the people that they serve but also how do we protect for the future. 

Well, thank you so much, Catherine. This is even more than I was expecting, so thank you so much for today's conversation. 

Thank you, Lauren, I really appreciate all the work you're doing, it's so important to create these dialogues, and you know, all learn from each other, so thank you.