Airlines: Taking ESG to New Heights ft. Chrystal Healy (Air Transat)

While corporate ESG is now top of mind for many companies, the topic itself has really only come into focus these past few years. Our next guest, however, has been deep in the space for more than 15 years. 

Chrystal Healy has served as Corporate Director, Environment and Sustainability, at Kruger, a privately held company operating in Canada and the United States, particularly in the paper, paperboard and packaging sectors. Previously, she joined, then headed, the Environment and Sustainable Development department at Quebecor – a major media and telecommunications company -after having held a position in the same area with Quebecor World.

In her current role as VP Corporate Responsibility for Air Transat, Chrystal is responsible for implementing the airline's ambitious ESG plan, setting and meeting targets, and ensuring full and transparent reporting.

Chrystal holds an MBA from JMSB and an MSc, and a Bachelor of Applied Science in Biology  from McGill University.

In this episode, Crystal dives into all things, airlines and corporate responsibility. Of course, top of mind, is that of reducing emissions: we explore the different avenues the industry has taken, what technology is on the horizon, the impact of regulations around the world and even CO2 tunnel vision. We also explore the less often discussed S, or social impact of the industry, including some of the incredible community and accessibility work being done at Air Transat. Chrystal shares some of the most common bottlenecks in deploying a sustainability plan, the importance of weaving E.S.G. into your organization’s overarching corporate strategy, the need for stakeholder buy-in, the role of listening when it comes to your sustainability approach, and so much more. 

Crystal is truly a wealth of knowledge on all things corporate responsibility, and her energy and passion for positive social and environmental impact within the corporate world is absolutely inspiring. I had such a great time catching up with Crystal, and I hope that you were able to gain some valuable insight as to how you might be able to apply some of her learnings within your own respective business. With that, please help me welcome Crystal to The Resilience Report!

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[Host: Lauren Scott] So welcome to The Resilience Report, Crystal. I'm so happy to have you on the show.

[Guest: Chrystal Healy] Hi, Lauren. Good to be here.

So you have had a really remarkable career and although maybe ESG / sustainability is top of mind for a lot of people right now, you've been in this space for around 15 years. Was there a specific moment that made you get involved all those years back?

Yeah, it's crazy. 15 years ago, if you were to say that, you know, I would be VP of Sustainability, they didn't really exist 15 years ago, so it's quite amazing. And honestly, I was always really drawn to nature. Like, that's just where I love being; I was happy outside. I studied in biology and environment; I did my masters in in Panama in biology and conservation. I just had this desire to protect the environment. So that's what led me academically down that path, and then I just kind of started working in environmental management right after my masters. And so I would say it kind of chose me. I could have continued doing research, but I really like strategy and I really like people and I love the business side of things. So, when I did my MBA, I kind of opened up this whole other notion of what sustainability is. It's really, you know, it's strategy. You need to use it in a strategy. So, sustainability really kind of chose me and it was just a natural path. There wasn't one thing.

And can you share some of those roles that you've had? Because it's been really amazing to see kind of externally as to that progress.

I would say it was really more focused on environment for most of my career. So, it was compliance at the beginning, that's where the jobs were at first. It was more like environmental management, permits, compliance reporting for the government and then one of the largest printers at the time. And then I went to Quebecor, which is the largest French media company in Quebec. And it was really a great school, I was there for 13 years. And it was a great school, because I was able to work in telecommunications with Videotron and understand that amazing industry. And then I was, but at the same time working production, events, media, printing. So, I was able to really work across many different industries in the same company. So even though I was there for 13 years, my job and my role changed so much. And I was really able to evolve. So it was, but again, very it was very, it was compliance, but then it was taking to the next level. So it was engaging employees, engaging clients. So, I was really able to understand the commercial side as well with the Super Club Videotron and the recycling of electronic waste. So, I was able to work on so many different subjects. So, it was a great place to learn.

And then I did pulp and paper. So, then I went to the industry side, which was an entire different ball game. It was very much, you know, B2C what is the, you know, the clients were not that wasn't customer facing in in that role. So, it was a very, very different role. 

And then I went to Air Transat which is where I am right now. It's been a year and I'm in my element because I really like being consumer-facing. I really love that creativity that comes with how do you transfer what you're doing and sustainability to the client, and so that's where I'm the happiest. That's where I am able to use my creativity because you have to be creative. You have to think out-of-the-box. You have to be innovative. How do you engage your clients? How do you engage all your different stakeholders. So where I am right now in my role at Transat, it really allows me to work across the entire value chain.

I would love to dive into that a little bit deeper and maybe, just to level-set in case someone just happens to not be familiar with Air Transat, just a little bit about the organization and how you are bringing that sustainability lens across the whole value chain.

Absolutely. Air Transat is a Montreal born company for over 35 years. It started as a travel company and then has really become an airline. So what we still have our travel agents as well and we have our airline, we're one of the four commercial airlines in Canada. And it's a fascinating industry. I had no idea just how fascinating the airline industry is. We are a small company, but it feels like a family, like we have such a big heart and the people, the culture at Transat is so strong. I remember when I was looking at joining, I was watching videos and I could feel it just through the videos in the employees. And then when you start at that company, you dense it right away. The culture is amazing and. 

But the industry has lots of challenges; the travel industry was hit with COVID. It was it was a huge, huge hit. We went from, you know, 5000 employees to 95% of our staff was not working.  And then all of a sudden, it's just starting off right again. So, it's, it's like being in a startup, but going from like 1000 employees to 4000 within a couple of weeks. So, you're just everyone's accelerating. I arrived at the company at that time when we were like growing. So, it's been very interesting to see that dynamic and how the company has maintained its culture. So, what my role at Transat as VP sustainability.: our core responsibility is really the environment-side. Our decarbonization strategy – which is a huge priority for the industry and we can talk a little bit more about that later – so the decarbonation all the environments side, reducing cabin waste, everything has to do with the environment. And then it's the people side. So, it's really, you know, how do we engage our clients or how do we make sure that we have the best experience for our clients, the most accessible, the most inclusive, but also that we have a workplace that's inclusive, that's diverse, that nourishes and it empowers our employees. And also, how do we engage our community? How do we connect people and our community? So, it's really the E, the S and the G. 

I have a team, but I'm a conductor. So, I'm really because you know you there's different ways that companies can work in system really. They can have a very large team. They can have a very small team. Normally it's kind of a mid-size, a small team then then you kind of permeate yourself and you build the expertise because sustainability is transversal. You have to build those experiences. You have to build the expertise in procurement and in marketing. So, it's really a work of trying to build those expertise. So, I really work closely with HR to engage our employees. I work really closely with marketing to engage our clients and work closely with procurement to work with our suppliers, with our finance to engage our investors with our government relations to work with government, our government and also with our partners and our communities. So, it's really a transversal stakeholder.

You mentioned the this aviation space overall having had to navigate very challenging years over the past couple of years.

Turbulence. There's been some turbulence, sure.

That's a perfect way to describe it. What would you say that the biggest opportunities are for the sector overall that you're really observing from that sustainability lens?

I think there's there is definitely some opportunities and, you know, every company will look at in a different way. But for Transat, given how strong our culture is, I think the opportunity is really with regards to our people and especially in an area and right now where there is a demand, there's such a large demand for employees. To where there's a shortage, that culture is an opportunity, because despite all of the challenges in the workforce right now, we still have an ability to attract talent. And so for us, I think that's a really important opportunity and it's an opportunity because that is a part of sustainability is how do you engage your workforce and how do you make sure that they are engaged with our sustainability strategy. So one of the big challenges when you're trying to deploy a sustainability strategy is the engagement of your employees. So when you have that strong culture and culture is not something that changes overnight, so if you already have that, and you have a management team that is really engaged and a board that's really engaged, well, that's a huge lever that really allows you to deploy something quicker. We have other obstacles, but the obstacle is not the culture. So, for me, I really think for us that the people is a huge opportunity and also there's an opportunity to really build alliances and to collaborate with our partners and to collaborate with communities and to collaborate with government because the challenges we face are really societal challenges that we cannot do on our own. So, I think there's a lot of opportunity there to really work together and to be stronger and really have a multiplier effect.

I agree with that. I definitely think that's the secret sauce of those who are in the sustainability space is that those who are dealing with it tend to actually want to collaborate with us because it is such a large problem. It's not just one organization feeling it, it's across the board that we need to work on it together. Absolutely.

Yeah, I really think collaboration is key. You know, and when you first start sustainability, you're and you have to present and you're trying to gain traction. You're going to talk about the return on sustainability, return on investment, and you're going to try to build that case, and you're going to try to demonstrate that it's can be a differentiating factor and for sure how you market it and how you do it could really help differentiate yourself. But at the end of the day, you have to work with industry. You have to work with your competitors. You have to work with government. You have to work with so many people, so yes, you can differentiate yourself, but you absolutely cannot do this alone in a silo. You need to work across your value chain.

And you briefly touched on some of the obstacles or bottlenecks that the industry might be facing? Are there any that you're really kind of seeing the whole industry trying to tackle together or independently? Any key themes that you've seen emerge?

Well, absolutely. I mean, decarbonization is a huge challenge and the biggest obstacle that our industry faces is the technological obstacles. It’s an achievement that we can fly - like every time I take a plane, I'm like, “this is amazing. We are flying”. It's a difficult technology and the planes that we have, they're 30 years old, it's not a technology that changes overnight. And in order to get electric planes or hyperplanes, we are still a long way away from that, especially for long haul flights because it's a weight issue. Batteries weigh a lot. 

So we are very far. You know, yes, we're gonna have electric planes for very small regional flights and that's going to come and that's amazing. And that's going to help us get to the next the next step, so technology is a huge obstacle for our industry and it's an industry that's growing. So, there's more people flying. We're trying to get to Net-Zero by 2050. More people are flying. The technology is not there yet, so it's a huge challenge in order to reduce our emissions. And so, the opportunity is around sustainable aviation fuel (SAF), which people have been talking a lot about, but there's obstacles there as well. It works, it's there, but it's not available at scale. And so that's a huge challenge. There's no commercially available SAF in Canada. And so really working with the government and working with industry producers in order to get SAF produced is a huge challenge for us. A SAF road map was just launched actually last week (June 5th), which kind of builds on what is needed, but it's very complex. So that's a big bottleneck. That's a big a big a big obstacle and absolutely have to work with the entire value chain in order to get that going.

And with Air Transat based here in Canada, are you seeing nuances in how airlines approach sustainability (environmental and social side) between countries or is it dependent on regulations?

That's a really good question. Actually, that's something that I wasn't fully prepared for that when I joined this industry. I remember leaving pulp and paper and being like, OK, I don't have to do so much permitting. It's like going to be less compliance. It was a bit of a wakeup call because the challenge with the airline industry is that you are operating across numerous jurisdictions. So, you leave one airspace with a set of rules and regulations and then you enter into another with the whole set of bills and regulations that are all changing and it's very, very complex. So, in Europe it’s more advanced, actually much more advanced in their regulation and their framework is very different. And of course, you have the EU and then you have the UK that's doing something different. But in Europe, they're using a bit more of what I would call a stick approach. So, they have for example mandates for SAF. Whereas in the US, it is also very advanced with regards to sustainable aviation fuel, but more of the of the carrot approach where they're saying here's incentives, tax breaks in order to increase the use of SAF. So, there's definitely differences with regards to decarbonization. We do have the International Council for Aviation (ICAO) that tries to consolidate certain international regulations, especially around climate, so that that is helpful. But even for waste, for example, the federal government in Canada has a waste, single- use plastic regulation that was that came out recently. And then the EU has some as well. But it's like you could the regulation is like, well, when you're in the plane airspace, you can’t do this, but as soon as you cross into another airspace. But that doesn't work for airlines. You know, when we purchase something, we have to make sure that we purchase and put something on board that's going to work across all of our jurisdictions, so you have to really navigate the regulations that are different from space to space. So that is definitely an added complexity.

That's really interesting, because I come from the built space and where a building is located is where you find the building!

I did too, so that was not something I was aware of

Do you find that this is positive in the sense that airlines are almost having to use the highest common denominator in terms of where the strictest laws are or what they need to apply?

I think so for sure. But I think that does help in order to push people into the airlines into just the highest denominator. It's more an administrative complexity and we want to have value added but the regulations and the administrative side of all the reports that have to be done. For the EU and then the UK and then Canada, we have so many reports, but that's not value added. So, if they could at least consolidate on the reporting requirements and just how the regulations are deployed would for sure be easier for us. So, we would be able to put our efforts into more value-added initiatives and not just reporting all the time, but yes, I think it can be a positive, but there's some downsides for sure.

And you briefly mentioned the topic of Sustainable Aviation Fuels or SAF. We actually had a guest on, it hasn't gone live just yet (by the time of the recording of this episode) but we spoke to someone who is in one of those organizations and they spoke a little bit from their production manufacturing side, the limitations. What are you seeing from an airline? If Air Transat or another company wants to start switching towards more sustainable solutions, what are the challenges that are being faced there? How close to reality can we already assume that we can start turning towards these more sustainable solutions?

Well, it's really complicated actually. I actually did not realize just how complicated it was. Because the thing with SAF is that it's not - we talked about SAF as if it's like one thing, but there's actually 7 pathways. There are five different types of SAF, seven different ways to get to SAF. They don't all have the same reductions, and they all have challenges and different drawbacks. So, the SAF that's being commercially being produced right now in the world is from oil and grease called the HEFA pathway. But there's downsides to that as well, because you have to try to find all that oil and grease you have to try to get it all consolidated. And there's really a limited amount, there's not enough for even like one fleet of an airline. And then there's, ethanol pathway and then there's competition with food stock. We have to really look at the long term we don't want to create new problems. We want to make sure that we're using a SAF that is sustainable not just from an environmental point of view. I saw an article recently of this was like this CO2 tunnel vision. You know, I think we have that CO2 tunnel vision. We're only looking at CO2 as this bottom line and we only care about the CO2, but we (at Transat) care more than just the CO2. We have to think about biodiversity, we have to think about the social side: are we going to increase the cost of food; we have to make sure that we take decisions that are not going to create problems down in the long term, just because we want to like meet our greenhouse gas emission targets. 

So, you really have to have this life-cycle thinking: you have to make sure that you make the right decisions and it's not always easy because we don't have a lot of choices right now. So, the challenge is really the availability and making sure that the government is investing in the right types of SAF. We don't have a political framework right now that that is incentivizing the production of SAF. Because there's a lot of demand for renewable diesel and, right now, it's easier to make renewable diesel, it's cheaper to make renewable diesel. So, the producers don't really have this incentive to make sustainable aviation fuel, which is more complicated and there's not this kind of incentive from the government. So, we really need a clear political signal that is really going to put sustainable aviation field on a level playing field with other. That's really the challenge that we have is really getting that going so that Canada can be competitive. Like in the US, there's the Inflation Reduction Act that is really driving all the investment in the US and we need to have something similar because we have everything that we could need to make to be a big player. We have lots of natural resources. Because you can make SAF with oil and grease, you can make soft with the agricultural waste. You can make SAF with forest residues, municipal waste, the one that we are looking at right now, is synthetic SAF. So, you can make synthetic SAF with renewable electricity, capturing CO2 from direct air capture or from an industrial process. So, there's all these different ways to make it and we in Canada and Quebec, we have everything in order to do it. So yeah, that's very challenging.

It sounds challenging, definitely exciting to see what might be coming down the pipeline, but also interesting to see the carrot and the stick and what seems to be working or not working to incentivize around the world.

You need both. You can't have the stick by itself, and you can't just have the carrot. You need to have both because the stick gives a clear signal to investors, the investors will invest in these technologies. These plants are millions of dollars to build: huge investments. In order for an investor to want to invest in it you need to have that clear kind of signal that, yes, this is going to be in the long term and it's going to be a requirement. But you also need the carrot in order to make it the return on investment interesting to drive production, to drive uptake. Because the SAF feels a lot more expensive than regular fuel, so you want to make sure you want to bring it down. You want it if it's two or three times more expensive, you need the carrot as well.

Another hot topic is certainly that of greenwashing, and we've seen a couple of different instances over the past few weeks alone impacting the aviation space. Is this something that is part of ongoing conversations that you're seeing as we navigate trying to find better solutions, how to best talk about it and share it and inspire others? And what are those conversations going on internally and externally across the industry right now?

Yeah, greenwashing is a huge thing. You asked me earlier about the differences in between countries. Europe is really under pressure and there are airlines that have already been that are in greenwashing cases right now, like Air France for using carbon neutrality claims. I think there's another one, another airline recently as well. So, that is something that is happening. We've had airlines that are actually being sued for greenwashing claims and it's airlines that have really wanted to do the right thing. They really were kind of movers and trying to drive certain changes, but the language you use is really important and so I'm very cautious to use any kind of claim of carbon neutrality. It's not something that I would ever use. There's this idea that we're trying to make guilt-free flying. And that's not the strategy that that we have. So, the airlines have to be very cautious and I think the strength that Transat has is because we're a small companies that we are very close and very agile. And so, when you're in a very large company, with the you know 30-40 thousand employees, the marketing team might not be as close to the sustainability team. Whereas we are very, very close to the marketing team and we work hand in hand and really raising awareness on the type of language and also why. Like why should you not say you know carbon neutral? It's important because it's not our direct emissions right now. So, I would be very hesitant to say anything is carbon neutral when we're using offsets still.

Right.

But also, people talk about green hushing. So, there is green washing. So it's kind of like damned if you do, and damned if you don't. And then, if you don't say enough, well, then your green hushing so it's navigating to say like, am I saying too much? Am I saying enough? So, it's very challenging. It's very, very challenging, especially when your client-facing, and what are you putting out there and making sure that it's authentic. So, it's really the conversations we have are really making sure that we're being authentic, that it's not, we're not trying to like be like “Oh, we're the best”. It's more about being very transparent, being very honest and really trying to create that kind of dialogue. But it's hard. Honestly, it's really hard.

I was just having this conversation the other day with my colleague, because we were looking. I think even people who read a lot of the reports, they don't understand the nuances of the terms that they use. Like they'll say CO2, and they'll say greenhouse gas emissions and they'll say CO2 equivalent kind of interchangeably, like they're all the same thing, but they're not all the same thing. And people don't understand that. So, I think that's another complexity when in the environmental space is that there's so many terms, in regards to ESG, sustainability that people are just very confused and kind of using all the same way. So, I think a lot of it might just be that people don't understand, so then they put themselves in hot water because they don't understand it. So that's the importance of making sure that you have real subject matter experts, and even then you'll make mistakes.

Absolutely, absolutely. And that's actually one of the benefits I think of having these long form conversations is that we're not limited to maybe that headline that - and I'm in marketing - is that sometimes you have 20 characters that you need to try and get a message across, and it and it doesn't have the nuances of trying to explain your sustainability path. So, I'm glad that you're able to share the nuances that are going on in the aviation space as well.

Yeah, exactly. And people will read the executive summary. They don't read everything else; they will read just the Instagram post. And yeah, there is a lot of nuances and that's actually something that I'm always struggling with because SAF, for me, is one of the big things is that I didn't know anything about the stuff before joining the industry. And we talked about it, but no one understands the complexity because it's almost so complicated to explain that it's like you can't explain it. So, it's hard, but you know, I think it's United who did a really good job. They have Oscar the Grouch as their chief garbage officer. And they have some videos on YouTube and it's really Oscar the Grouch and he's the chief garbage officer. And so, they kind of use this, they definitely oversimplify it, but they try to make it in a way that that is more user-friendly, and people can start thinking about it in a in a kind of a fun entertaining way. So, I thought they did a good job.

It's a very unique way to tackle the labor shortage too. So, we talked about the environmental side, but there are certainly social considerations and you mentioned it and an angle I hadn't thought of as flights get more expensive, there is also potential impact on the cost of food. Can you discuss a little bit more if we talk about ESG, the S considerations for the sector?

The S considerations are important because I mean, I think we saw it with COVID. Travel is a huge industry and there's lots of countries and regions that depend on tourism. I'm talking about the S, but it also goes with the economy side as well the local communities that we support. So, tourism can and travel as well can be a force for good. I really do believe it is a force for good, when it's done properly. There's a social side of really supporting these communities. We're helping people connect and that's really the more obvious side of what our industry does: we're traveling, we're connecting people, but we're also connecting to communities. So, we have our own, we have community, our community, our home base of Montreal where we're from. But we also have all the communities that we travel to and, we travel to many different countries and so we have a role as well. 

And to support these different communities and so the S side is really important because we can also engage our clients (the people who are traveling) in this desire to empower these communities, and we can also engage our employees as well. So, the S-side is really important, but there's also the aspect of diversity, equity, inclusion and accessibility as well. That's part of the S-side: making sure that we foster a diverse and equitable and inclusive workforce, and by doing that as well, that will transfer to the client side by making sure that if our culture and our employees are engaged in that way, and that are that are more open and more accepting, that's also going to transfer over to our clients.

And we want to make sure that we also have an experience that's accessible for those who are living with handicaps, so those that is really the S side of it. We have lots of programs that we work on in order to really leverage what we do and bring in a strength. So, for instance, when the Ukraine War started a year ago, we were approached by an organization in order to help bring Ukrainians from Europe to Canada. And it was something that, you know, summer was coming, we knew that we weren't going to have a lot of passengers. So, we really acted on it quickly. And we've been working with this organization for over a year. It's really for Ukraine, and we've helped over 600 Ukrainians come to Canada with this organization. And so, finding those good partners as well and this organization goes beyond just not just bringing them here, then they help them find a job and they provide support for integrating. They provide support for the hosts, and they provide support for post-traumatic stress, so it's really a 360 approach. They're all volunteers. They're an amazing organization, so it's working with these great organizations, but it's also using travel for good. We help SOS Villages. I had the opportunity to go this spring or this winter to Dominican, where we've been supporting a village for SOS Villages for many, many, many years. And being there and seeing the impact that this organization has was amazing, was completely eye opening and it's 360 again. They really support these children and it was amazing. So, we have a program where clients can give all their change on the plane and that goes to SOS and there's so many other things that we do. Those are just two that come to mind, but the social side is important. It's really important that we work with our communities. And use travel for good.

It sounds like it might be hard to pinpoint just one, given everything that's going on right now, but are you working on any specific projects right now that you're particularly excited about?

I have a child who's autistic with special needs. He has a syndrome and he has intellectual deficiency and it's something that's passionate for me. And so, to be able to take on this role, because I said I did environments for so long, but to for me to be able to take on the role of social and philanthropy and accessibility has been like the biggest gift to be able to have that passion that my personal passion and to bring it to a company to try to help drive this in the industry is, for me, is something that is that I'm very passionate about and very excited and everything to do around accessibility is that really important to me.

We did our day in Montreal for the familiarization with the Montreal airport for children on the spectrum. We did April 2nd on World Autism Day. It was with Autism Montreal, as well as Giant Steps and it was an amazing day and the impact on the families was they just loved it. We did a social story for them. And so I would love to grow / build on that and see what we can do more. So, it's not just one day a year; how can we make the travel experience easier for families like mine. So that's something that's just passion. It's not a part of a specific project that's there, but just working on that in general is something that I'm really excited about. And there's some other things that I mean we're working on so much; it's hard to choose just one. I think the just the decarbonization strategy for sure is something that I’m really focused on and how we can bring that to light. And you know, how can we create momentum? We just identified our new targets, so I'm really excited about deploying it and engaging all our employees around it and really creating that momentum and making sure that it's not my plan or our plan, but it's the plan of every single employee. So, I'm excited about that for 2024. It's like bringing all this work in the last year to life.

I have no doubt that with people listening to you and how passionate you are about this, that you're going to inspire others to want to bring CSR/ESG programs to their own organizations. If there is someone listening and they just, they maybe don't have something set up within their organization, what would you recommend as the first step?

Well, I think a lot of times people kind of go through this kind of ticking the box approach where it's like, OK, I'm going to recycle and then I'm going to get some bees on the roof and then I'm going to... Yeah, these are all great. But I would say my advice is really to look at it as strategy. And that's where you’re going to gain traction. That's where you’re going to also the buy in. That's really key is like it's a strategy thing, it can't be something that's on the side. You need to really look at where can I have the greatest impact with the greatest credibility? I would always give this example: if you're like Tim Horton’s and you want to do something and you focus on coffee and also responsible procurement - like that's where you want to start!

Right.

You need to focus. Like, for us, water is not an issue. So, I'm not going to focus on water, right? You need to focus on where you have the greatest impact and that's where you're going to really make a difference. So, it's not about having like a million little things, but focus on what's material. Where can you have and impact with credibility. And that's, I think, the thing that I would focus on and also, I would say that it's just knowing what you don't know. Like I'm not an expert in one thing. I'm a kind of an expert in knowing where my blind spots are and knowing where I have to learn. It's having a growth mindset and being open to different things that are really important, but not to be scared to come up with ideas. 

I did one of those psychometric tests and they tell you the kind of person you are. And I was actually really surprised it came out as creative. And I was just like oh, that makes sense because you have to be creative. You have to be creative. Like you're going to have 20 ideas and maybe only one's going to stick, but you can't be scared to have those ideas and to try to contaminate other people with those ideas. But I would say, focus on what's the most important. And then, you need to know who your allies are for sure. In order to get things going, you have to understand that. That's why I say strategy because strategy is not just about a plan. Anybody can make a plan. Your plans die in execution. So, when I talk about strategy, it's not just coming up with that plan, it's how are you going to execute that plan? And so, when you talk about strategy, it's also about how am I going to have an influence? Who are my allies? Who are the people who are going to block me? How do I get this going? What are the internal processes that I need to align with in order to make this stick? How do I integrate this with objectives? It's about executing the plan. For me, that's the hard part. It's not coming up with the plan. There are a million plans out there. It's trying to get that plan off the paper and into the organization so that it sticks.

Maybe to just double-click on that for one second. So let's say we'll take the Tim Horton's example (and we're not picking on you, Tim Horton's!), but if someone there wants to go into sustainable procurement, that is a big lift. Do you feel like, to secure executive buy-in and continued support, there need to be quick wins along the way? It's something that I am seeing a little bit right now that there's initial excitement, but if you're not seeing small wins at least along the way, that sometimes people can get a bit skittish and almost back off of the plan.

Well yeah, and that's a super good point, Lauren. And that's like kind of the aspect of strategy, right? It's like the seven steps of change: it's change management and that's part of strategy. So, when you execute your plan, then you focus on the most important in your plan. Your plan is not tomorrow, it's like the next two years. But within that plan, yes, you need to have that change management. You need to be like, hey, what are my quick wins? How am I communicating this? How am I getting the buy in? I'm growing, I'm continuing, I'm getting momentum, communicate again, quick win, but always with kind of that long term goal of what those quick wins hopefully support that long term end goal. You have to and going into large organization and changing things overnight like that's where the buy in and making sure that you have the allies at the management level are really important. You need to have that support, you need the support of the board, you need the support at management and then you need the support under management that's going to help you get the support of management. So who are those people who can support you in middle management in order to get that support? 

So being a disruptor like yourself and being part of this change management is not always easy and over the course of the past 15 years of you being in these roles, do you lean on any resources to help keep you going and motivated even when maybe you're facing some roadblocks or challenges along the way?

Oh yeah, there are so many resources now. It's like, I get so many articles I don't have time to read them. There's so many things, and I think in sustainability, we're lucky because we're often as supportive and our teams are in our networks with likeminded and passionate people. But it's hard because the work is never done. You're never done. You're not just like, OK, I can take a break now. And it's like, OK, it's on to the next thing because it's never done. 

I think the support for me is more like having those colleagues who are not necessarily in my own company, but even in people who I've worked with on committees or to have that kind of network I would say is more important. Lke there's lots of articles, but if you can find a network of people in sustainability, for me, when I was at Quebecor there was the Conseil Patronal de l'Environnement du Québec (CPEQ) that started this sustainability committee and it was all people with roles like myself and we would get together once a month and we would just talk about our real challenges. Because I think that that's what you want; that's, for me, is what really helps because you can read the articles, but it's more about how did you do it in your organization? For me, it's more about building that network with people in sustainability who are starting and really having that kind of network. There's a sustainability group for women in Montreal. They get together, they lunch, I think, like once a month and they talk about their challenges and opportunities. I think that is the key: is really having those kind of friends that you can turn to and be like, hey, how did you guys do this? Or who did you work with? That's really helpful.

Well, you are a wealth of knowledge and your passion just feeds right through with the audio right now. So, thank you for sharing all of this. We do like to end every episode with the same question, which is what do you think it's going to take for businesses and leaders to be resilient going forward?

Resilience is like the heart of sustainability. It really is. And I think it's really about knowing what you don't know and really - you can't get disengaged because it can be frustrating. Like you're taking two steps forward, one step back and I think that's something that we've always seen. It can be frustrating that doesn't go fast enough, but to be resilience is really understanding all of your stakeholders. You need to take a step back. You have to be able to take that bird's eye view and really understand what's going on. What is going on upstream? What is going on downstream? And I think that is what resilience is and we've seen it with this value chain, with the supply chain disruptions, with greenwashing. These are all things that are going on outside of our operations. And so, if you want to be resilient, you need to be two steps ahead. You need to understand what is happening in my supply chain? How do I make this supply chain more robust and what are the expectations of my clients? Of my investors? What is going on with the governments? What do my employees care about? So really being more in tuned and having that bidirectional communication across the value chain is, I think, what is going to help us be more and more resilient. You need to be open and listening all the time.

Well, thank you so much, Chrystal. It's been such a pleasure speaking to you and I cannot wait to see what you're doing next with Air Transat and beyond.

Thank you so much and thanks for having me. It was full circle, right? We both grew up in the same area and both work in sustainability. So, I always I follow you, I see everything you're doing. You also radiate with passion. And it's amazing that you're doing this and all the other stuff that that you're doing, I follow you on LinkedIn. So, thank you so much. And you know, it's always nice to speak with a fellow disruptor.

Thank you.